tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post2603652372337521820..comments2023-08-18T08:27:06.472-07:00Comments on The Keene View on Computing: Where have all the 4GLs Gone?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-78710632164162627832008-12-12T15:06:00.000-08:002008-12-12T15:06:00.000-08:00The solution to all you who are seeking: AlphaSoft...The solution to all you who are seeking: AlphaSoftware:www.alphasoftware.com with their product Alpha 5 Version 9. Point and click data driven web application development with AJAXAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-3018648737016204622008-09-17T19:19:00.000-07:002008-09-17T19:19:00.000-07:00Actually PB *did* do the jump to Web, you can crea...Actually PB *did* do the jump to Web, you can create webform apps from your PB apps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-90428276677716762452008-09-15T14:23:00.000-07:002008-09-15T14:23:00.000-07:00@emir&anon - you are absolutely right, there a...@emir&anon - you are absolutely right, there are many client/server gui builders that still work very well. However, the market has moved on and people want to be able to build real web apps easily.<BR/><BR/>The analogy is that when PowerBuilder came out there were many mainframe and minicomputer 4GLs that were quite powerful (anyone remember Natural or Mantis?). <BR/><BR/>Developers moved to PowerBuilder because it was a better tool for building Windows apps. Developers will leave Apex and PowerBuilder once they seem tools with similar power and architected from the ground up to support web apps.Christopher Keenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04452233158192995749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-50644805544330732792008-09-15T01:22:00.000-07:002008-09-15T01:22:00.000-07:00Why don't you continue using PB?Why don't you continue using PB?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-49553843046469316502008-09-13T05:58:00.000-07:002008-09-13T05:58:00.000-07:00you should try Oracle APEXIt's Oracle, but you can...you should try Oracle APEX<BR/><BR/>It's Oracle, but you can have Oracle XE and Oracle APEX for free <BR/><BR/>(with some limitations, like database size under 4Gb)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09883351081340416847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-50197500535766796662008-09-12T11:31:00.000-07:002008-09-12T11:31:00.000-07:00GWTGWTconstance eustacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10766996152700797287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-39056173101479959402008-09-12T08:35:00.000-07:002008-09-12T08:35:00.000-07:00@Seaside fan - SmallTalk never really got credit f...@Seaside fan - SmallTalk never really got credit for just how cool and easy it was. Much of what WaveMaker is doing was first pioneered by SmallTalk. For example, WaveMaker applications run live inside of the WaveMaker studio (which happens to have been written in WaveMaker so there is some nice recursion there :-)Christopher Keenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04452233158192995749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-14520105520050631742008-09-12T08:33:00.000-07:002008-09-12T08:33:00.000-07:00@belaus - we have an entire bookcase at work groan...@belaus - we have an entire bookcase at work groaning under the weight of all the O'Reilly books you have to read to become a web developer. Let's hope that WaveMaker lures you back into the development world!Christopher Keenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04452233158192995749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-89548379729744993292008-09-12T07:29:00.000-07:002008-09-12T07:29:00.000-07:00>it is no longer possible for mere >mortals ...>it is no longer possible for mere >mortals to build basic business >applications<BR/><BR/>Only true in parts. The main problem is that people always buy/use frameworks and IDE's with nice generators, wizards who suggest to help with complicated stuff instead of having a look at the real code. Most of the time the generated result is non-understandable, overcomplicated, mixed with thousands of XML configurations, ...<BR/>If a problem appears in one case or the other there is always a "smart" programmer reinventing the next language/framework to solve the next problem.<BR/><BR/>The problem with that is that you are not able to keep the focus on the actual business problem to solve.<BR/><BR/>After several more or less unsuccessful attempts (including the whole Struts/Spring/J2EE train) I'm now starting to become fan of Seaside (<A HREF="http://www.seaside.st" REL="nofollow">http://www.seaside.st</A>) after I've heard that <A HREF="http://www.dabbledb.com" REL="nofollow">dabbledb.com</A> is built with it and trying Seaside myself. Documentation is sparse but <A HREF="http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial" REL="nofollow">http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial</A> helped me a lot.<BR/>Seaside is based on Smalltalk (very old, but stable) which is an OO language and with five keywords easy to learn. You can change the program while it is running (no webserver restarts even for domain refactorings). Seaside itself takes care of all the stuff (session handling, HTTP stuff, security, callbacks, ...) They use Smalltalk blocks - so you get called on the server side for client side events. Rendering is done in code (no templates), styled with CSS.<BR/>See <A HREF="http://seaside.st/about/examples/counter" REL="nofollow">http://seaside.st/about/examples/counter</A> for a simple example. The only drawback it has is that it's hard to find hosting since it's less known and runs on it's own portable VM - so I bought an own root server. There is also no UI builder like you have in JSF/JSP environments. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand Seaside is open source, easy enough (for me) to understand and I can invest my time on interesting tasks again...<BR/><BR/>Have no experience with RubyOnRails. Maybe that's better - at least it has more documentation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-294880355377903512.post-39104843464793864212008-09-11T15:56:00.000-07:002008-09-11T15:56:00.000-07:00I am from the old-skool PowerBuilder world myself ...I am from the old-skool PowerBuilder world myself - or PB as we used to like to call it. I vividly remember how easy and quick we could develop apps which were really easy to make look good – using WYSIWYG painters. I am no longer programming but using my experience and skills to gather and specify the requirements. The projects I have been involved with since, were mostly web app projects and I have to say that in a way I feel sorry for the developers of today. They need to be across so many different technologies; J2EE, JSP, JSF, CSS, HTML, XML, JavaScript/ Dojo Toolkit/Prototype/Script.aculo.us, Hibernate, SQL and CSV/SVN/DARCS/GIT compared to in the PB days; SQL and PB Script! No wonder I get frustrated to see how long things take (read expensive) and how hard it seems to make the GUI look good. I am sure there are circumstances where one would need the find grained access to each component but the majority of business apps should be able much easier to create and maintain. I have been keeping an eye on WaveMaker since its ActiveGrid days and I am keeping my fingers crossed :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com